Cylinder Boring & Honing Survey

[CR_Steve]

Hi Everyone,
I own a small machine shop that produces prototypes for products. My machines are also suited for boring cylinders as well. I have several of my own cylinders that I plane to bore in the coming weeks. A few people have suggested that I offer boring and honing as a service; however, I’m not sure this service is in demand. I would like to hear from members their opinion on the need for this service.
Thanks

 

[dirtdigger]

Personally I use cycle x because they are THE best at 750 hondas and they do everything. Not saying you dont do good work just saying they know how to do the work on these engines and have little secrets they do specifically to these engines and they all machine work necessary for these engines not just boring and honing but crank machine work, balancing, case machining, gear backcutting, surfacing, valve guides, valve jobs porting etc. But if all you need is cylinder boring and live fairly close by then you may get some work. I personally send all machine work to one place that can do everything.

 

[CR_Steve]

(Not saying you dont do good work) Ouch!!! Sure sounds like it!

Hmmm, Moderator, Staff Member and probably the site owner or very close friend of CycleX. Obviously you don’t want anyone to get work by communicating on what is supposed to be an open site for collaboration and sharing of information. I know of CycleX and in no way trying to take work from them. Nor would I want to bash them in any way. However, I worked in a Honda shop in 1970 while in high school and had the first CB750 K0 that arrived in the shop (I raced the bike while in high school). I was boring and honing cylinders on a daily basis as I quickly became the “Engine Builder” for the shop and went on to work in other Honda and Yamaha shops. The shops I worked in were in NJ and I later owned an Auto Body shop in Riverside, NJ not far from Chiaccio Motors. When I found auto body work boring, I went on to study Mechanical engineering at Drexel University where I received my degree in Mechanical Engineering. After college, I began work testing Jet engines for the Navy and finally worked at the Naval Air Station in Patuxent River, MD. This is the headquarters for Naval Aviation worldwide. This is where Navy test pilots are trained. It is also where John Glenn was trained as a test pilot. While there I designed and engineered prototypes for test aircraft and worked on high speed balancing of aircraft gears. Now semi retired I help machine parts and build prototypes for some race shops.

Now on to CycleX. I’m providing the following as informative information not criticism. A couple weeks ago I was called into a shop that builds NASCAR engines to help with a crankshaft balance issue. While there they had two balance machines. One was the same as the one I see in CycleX’s shop photos and the other was a commercial balance machine. The small balancer that sits on the milling table did not produce results as good as the commercial balancer. Some of the designs used that balancer reduce and dampen vibration response. Next, things are not balanced for a specific RPM (as indicated on CycleX website). They are balanced to a vibration level which will allow operation at the desired RPM. I was also looking for information on honing details as well as information on cylinder bore surface finish, surface measurements with a profilometer or a surface finish report for the customer…gee I must have missed that.

 

[dirtdigger]

Like I said I didnt say you did bad work, we know nothing about you or your work. You provided no information on your equipment your experience or anything along those lines. All you asked if boring and honing service is in demand with no other info. I told you who I use personally and who is dedicated to machine work for the 750. No I am not the site owner or a friend of cyclex but have used there machining services and parts for probably 15 years with no issues. You right away jump into taking offense when non was given and then go on to impress and in a way try to one up with you life story. You could have given a little back story on your machining experience and what work you can do and can offer to us. Quality motor cycle specific machine work is hard to find so new places would always be nice. Have a good day.

 

[CR_Steve]

Like I said I didnt say you did bad work, we know nothing about you or your work. You provided no information on your equipment your experience or anything along those lines. All you asked if boring and honing service is in demand with no other info. I told you who I use personally and who is dedicated to machine work for the 750. No I am not the site owner or a friend of cyclex but have used there machining services and parts for probably 15 years with no issues. You right away jump into taking offense when non was given and then go on to impress and in a way try to one up with you life story. You could have given a little back story on your machining experience and what work you can do and can offer to us. Quality motor cycle specific machine work is hard to find so new places would always be nice. Have a good day.

The title states survey. It doesn’t imply anything other than gathering information about the market for boring and honing cylinders. I did not ask for recommendations on where to go for work or service. I’m only interested in determining if there is a demand for the service that is not being met. I didn’t state I’m going into business tomorrow boring cylinders. For all you know I could be a marketing person gathering information for a report. You complain I didn’t state my background and then, you accuse me of trying to “one up” you. As for equipment, I don’t see an equipment list on CycleX’s site. So what I see from his pictures was a knee mill, Winona Van Norman head machine and a Turner balancer. I don’t see any boring or honing equipment. I do agree with you statement “Quality motor cycle specific machine work is hard to find so new places would always be nice.” and if I move forward with this, I plan to provide high quality work as well as advanced engineering work in IC engine development.

 

[Nunya Bidnes]

In answer to your survey, yes I do anticipate needing some quality machine work. As soon as I need the services of an insufferable prick, I will contact you.

 

[DEO]

In answer to your survey, yes I do anticipate needing some quality machine work. As soon as I need the services of an insufferable prick, I will contact you.

Hey, plenty of room around here for pricks. God knows we have more than enough sally ass soy boys.

 

[CR_Steve]

In answer to your survey, yes I do anticipate needing some quality machine work. As soon as I need the services of an insufferable prick, I will contact you.

Thank You for calling me a prick. So here is the truth about engineers. We love being called pricks! We are called a prick by people who either can’t or are too lazy to do their job correctly! So yes, I’m a prick at doing things correctly and keeping up date on advancements and industry improvements. The test of the people that called me a prick was to see which ones later came back and admitted I helped them by requiring a high level of workmanship. Those that didn’t got canned.

 

[CR_Steve]

One final thought, the reason air travel is the safest form of travel, is because pricks like me made it that way.

 

[CR_Steve]

So it looks like this thread has completely deviated from the original topic. Is there a way to change the title of thread? Maybe we can change it to “How many ways can we call a member a “Prick”” because we can’t answer the original question.

 

[DEO]

Thank You for calling me a prick. So here is the truth about engineers. We love being called pricks! We are called a prick by people who either can’t or are too lazy to do their job correctly! So yes, I’m a prick at doing things correctly and keeping up date on advancements and industry improvements. The test of the people that called me a prick was to see which ones later came back and admitted I helped them by requiring a high level of workmanship. Those that didn’t got canned.

You are 100% correct and your arrogance bleeds out your pores and onto the thread.
Brother don't ever change, stay the course.
And please don't lose that charm!!

 

[Old_Crow]

You know who in the world hates engineers the most? The mechanics that have to fix the shit you design when it breaks...and it all breaks sooner or later.

 

[CR_Steve]

You know who in the world hates engineers the most? The mechanics that have to fix the shit you design when it breaks...and it all breaks sooner or later.

If that were the case, you wouldn't still be riding a 50 year old motorcycle. It would have worn out beyond repair a long time ago. So maybe we should make you head of engine development. Hmmm, better yet why don't you list the things you designed and put into public production as well as the reliability and failure rates of those products. I absolutely love this...none of you have given a credible answer to my original question.

 

[Old_Crow]

If that were the case, you wouldn't still be riding a 50 year old motorcycle. It would have worn out beyond repair a long time ago. So maybe we should make you head of engine development. Hmmm, better yet why don't you list the things you designed and put into public production as well as the reliability and failure rates of those products. I absolutely love this...none of you have given a credible answer to my original question.

See, now you're making assumptions about my skills.

You're assuming that I don't have the know how or skills to maintain and ride a 50-year-old motorcycle. I've been riding and maintaining motorcycles since at least 12 years before my current '79 model was gleaming new on the showroom floor.
After high school I spent 10 years working on multi-million-dollar military aircraft and when I got out of the Air Force I went into automotive maintenance for the next 40-some years. My career culminated with me owning a hot rod and restoration shop where we specialized in re-building and maintaining vehicles much older than 50 years. For this entire time motorcycles have been my hobby. Since my CB175 in '70 I've never had a new one and I've bought several as what I term "kits" where I have had to purchase several bikes to get enough to build one.

In answer to your original question, sure, there's a market out there for someone to do motorcycle machine work. Have at it. However, be aware that there's a lot of hacks out there, and those of us that have been around a while have found people that we trust to do the work we need. I know I have, and as you can tell from his replies, so has DirtDigger. Maybe in a few years you'll develop a good reputation and a following. Maybe not. With your current attitude I vote "not". I've taken my money elsewhere a couple of times when I walked into a shop where the guy behind the counter displayed an attitude similar to yours. HIs mechanical skills may have been top notch, but he never got the chance to demonstrate them because his people skills sucked.

 

[CR_Steve]

See, now you're making assumptions about my skills.

You're assuming that I don't have the know how or skills to maintain and ride a 50-year-old motorcycle. I've been riding and maintaining motorcycles since at least 12 years before my current '79 model was gleaming new on the showroom floor.
After high school I spent 10 years working on multi-million-dollar military aircraft and when I got out of the Air Force I went into automotive maintenance for the next 40-some years. My career culminated with me owning a hot rod and restoration shop where we specialized in re-building and maintaining vehicles much older than 50 years. For this entire time motorcycles have been my hobby. Since my CB175 in '70 I've never had a new one and I've bought several as what I term "kits" where I have had to purchase several bikes to get enough to build one.

In answer to your original question, sure, there's a market out there for someone to do motorcycle machine work. Have at it. However, be aware that there's a lot of hacks out there, and those of us that have been around a while have found people that we trust to do the work we need. I know I have, and as you can tell from his replies, so has DirtDigger. Maybe in a few years you'll develop a good reputation and a following. Maybe not. With your current attitude I vote "not". I've taken my money elsewhere a couple of times when I walked into a shop where the guy behind the counter displayed an attitude similar to yours. HIs mechanical skills may have been top notch, but he never got the chance to demonstrate them because his people skills sucked.

For this entire time motorcycles have been my hobby.
Same here

"Since my CB175 in '70"
I owned one as well, candy apple red and it was the second bike I purchased new. (not bragging just the fact)

I purchased many bikes and sold them regularly. I purchased my last bike from the original shop I worked in back in 2001 when I purchased my CBR929RR. My last new bike was the 2014, CB1100.

I worked in two Honda shops and a couple other shops. I uncrated and put together the first (4) CB750, K0 bikes the shop I worked in received. I purchased one of those bikes. While in HS and raced it every weekend at a local track. I became the shop engine builder and for years, I rebuilt all the “rebuilds” that came into the shop. You and DirtDigger somehow think I don’t know anything about CB750’s or maybe any other bike as well. My question was simple and direct. DirtDigger for some reason took my question as an assault on CycleX.

You and your fellow detractors assume I’m some hack that knows nothing. Just curious did you or DirtDigger ever work in a Honda shop or any MC shop?

During my career as an Engineer, Honda offered me an Engineering position at their new test and development center in Ohio, I would have employee #44. I turned down the job because Honda offered two career paths, Testing or Design. I could select either but would never have the opportunity to switch to the other path.

I may not be good enough for you but Honda thought I was good enough for them.

So here is the back story to my original question. I have a friend that builds engines and sometimes he gets a MC cylinders that is too small for his machine. He brings them to me as I have smaller boring bars for my machining center. He then goes back and finishes the cylinder. It isn’t worth his time but he wants to keep the customer happy. I suggested I could post something to see if there was a need for the MC service and that he could have cylinder shipped to him. If he did more MC cylinder then it may make sense to buy smaller boring bars to handle the smaller bores. Then I wouldn’t have to deal with the one off’s from time to time.

However, before I even got that far DirtDigger jumped down my throat about CycleX. Maybe if DirtDigger answered the question, we would not be where we are now.

 

[Old_Crow]

Wow.
The 175 was my 3rd bike. Had a Trail 50 and a 160 Scrambler before that. Got away from Hondas for a while with a couple of Triumph choppers and then a venture into old Harleys for about 30 years. At one point my wife and I both had Ironhead Sportsters. My ability to keep 2 Ironheads running at the same time for a period of 10 years or so says something of my abilities if you know anything about vintage HDs. I've gotten back into old Hondas now that I'm in my 70's and don't really want to wrestle an 800lb bagger on a regular basis.

Anyway. You've posted 9 messages in this forum, 8 of which are in this thread. I went back and read Digger's first post and he never said anything bad about you or your work. He only said he uses CycleX because he's used them before and he's happy with the results. That's basically the same thing I said without naming a shop. I'm of an age where I prefer to get my stuff done locally so I can speak face to face with the man doing the job to make sure I get exactly what I want, but if I needed to send out a part, I'd certainly consider CycleX, not only because of Digger's recommendation but of other experiences I've read about on this and other forums.

Now, after the above post we all know a bit more about your qualifications. Knowledge we didn't have before because you're new to the forum. You might certainly get some business boring and honing cylinders, but I agree with Digger. If you're going to offer boring and honing, why not set up to do the rest of the jobs he detailed? Saves someone from having to send different parts of a project to different vendors.
Also, if you're as...shall we say "abrasive" in real life as you are on the 'net, I don't think I'd expect many repeat customers.

An example: I walked into an independent Harley shop in Memphis one time. I had a list of parts for my wife's bike and money in my pocket to pay for them. Guy behind the counter asked if he could help me. I replied that I needed some parts for a Sportster. He reached behind the counter and came up with a tape measure. He ran the dumb end to the floor and pretended to measure my height with the tape. He said, "You're too big to ride a Sportster." I turned around and walked out of the shop without another word. Took my $2100 to a different shop in Memphis and got everything on the list and a few things I'd forgotten because the man behind that counter took the time to listen instead of trying to be cute with me.

Okay, that's my 2 cents. I'm done with this conversation. Have a life.

 

[CR_Steve]

Wow.
The 175 was my 3rd bike. Had a Trail 50 and a 160 Scrambler before that. Got away from Hondas for a while with a couple of Triumph choppers and then a venture into old Harleys for about 30 years. At one point my wife and I both had Ironhead Sportsters. My ability to keep 2 Ironheads running at the same time for a period of 10 years or so says something of my abilities if you know anything about vintage HDs. I've gotten back into old Hondas now that I'm in my 70's and don't really want to wrestle an 800lb bagger on a regular basis.

Anyway. You've posted 9 messages in this forum, 8 of which are in this thread. I went back and read Digger's first post and he never said anything bad about you or your work. He only said he uses CycleX because he's used them before and he's happy with the results. That's basically the same thing I said without naming a shop. I'm of an age where I prefer to get my stuff done locally so I can speak face to face with the man doing the job to make sure I get exactly what I want, but if I needed to send out a part, I'd certainly consider CycleX, not only because of Digger's recommendation but of other experiences I've read about on this and other forums.

Now, after the above post we all know a bit more about your qualifications. Knowledge we didn't have before because you're new to the forum. You might certainly get some business boring and honing cylinders, but I agree with Digger. If you're going to offer boring and honing, why not set up to do the rest of the jobs he detailed? Saves someone from having to send different parts of a project to different vendors.
Also, if you're as...shall we say "abrasive" in real life as you are on the 'net, I don't think I'd expect many repeat customers.

An example: I walked into an independent Harley shop in Memphis one time. I had a list of parts for my wife's bike and money in my pocket to pay for them. Guy behind the counter asked if he could help me. I replied that I needed some parts for a Sportster. He reached behind the counter and came up with a tape measure. He ran the dumb end to the floor and pretended to measure my height with the tape. He said, "You're too big to ride a Sportster." I turned around and walked out of the shop without another word. Took my $2100 to a different shop in Memphis and got everything on the list and a few things I'd forgotten because the man behind that counter took the time to listen instead of trying to be cute with me.

Okay, that's my 2 cents. I'm done with this conversation. Have a life.

No, I’m very friendly. However, it just felt like he was putting me down without knowing anything about me.

As a government engineer, we would sometimes be treated badly by the aerospace companies. After a qualification test, a gear had a strange wear pattern on the face of the teeth. My boss told me to write it up and he went off to a meeting with the senior engineers at the company. The engineers at the company thought the gear was symmetrical. After examining the gear closely I discovered the gear wasn’t symmetrical and was actually installed backwards. I called my boss and told him. Almost instantly I was surrounded by about ten company engineers. The division manager began screaming that I was a Fn idiot and I didn’t know anything. What he didn’t know was that I had experience working on Honda gearboxes. As they went searching for the installation manual (took about 10 minutes) he continued to scream at me so loud that other people came in to see what was going on. After reviewing the installation manual, they discovered I was correct. So did I get an apology…hell no he and the group just walked off. So ya, I get a little touchy at times.

As for boring cylinders I’m not sure I want to even get involved in doing that. I just wanted to hear from people about the need for or challenges in getting cylinders bored. I wasn’t going to focus just on CB750’s but as I’m on this site I thought the need for boring would be universal across all bikes. The CB750 was a nice bike that I like a lot (I have 3 of them) and I’m just not interested at this time in doing the other services that CycleX offers. There were a lot of limitations in the original design of the 750 engine that become frustrating when trying to modify the engine. IMO, the CB450 was actually way more advanced in engine design.

Yes, I also like the old Harleys but my favorite was the XR750 for flat track racing. My friend’s father had an older Harley but I don’t remember what it was. I do remember that the timing advance was on the left hand grip and the throttle on the right. He was trying to get it adjusted while running and the exhaust was glowing red!

The more interesting thing was his brother has a Vincent Black Shadow! It was definitely a bad ass bike. The End