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A little rant

pidjones

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Sorry for this, but it seems way too prevalent these days. Someone asks a question on a forum that they could have answered themselves with a two-minute Google search, FSM search, or a look at the parts fische easily found on a dozen different dealer's web sites (I prefer Southern Powersports, YMMV). What really bugs me, is if you send them a LINK to the info, they come back with another question that the same link answers! I feel that in today's world, inability to handle simple internet searches and maintain a list of bookmarks is like inability to use a torque wrench or find your 10mm socket!
 
While I agree that searching would answer most questions you also have to realize that not every IS internet and computer savvy. My dad knows just enough to find some basic stuff on internet but is one of the best mechanics I know and gets most parts locally even though he could have found them cheaper online but doesnt know where to look or even really thinks about looking for the stuff online. Its just old school thinking. Also that is somewhat the point of these forums as a place to search for answers. If everyone googled everything then there would be a point for the forums would there? Also no one is forcing anyone to look or answer peoples questions in these posts. If you find something repetitive or annoying to you then just dont look or answer that post, simple. No one makes you read the posts and no one makes you answer the same question over and over. If it really bothers you just go on to the next post. What seems obvious to one person is not necessarily obvious to the next person, we all comprehend things differently and all have different levels of mechanical ability. We are all here to help and pass on knowledge to others lets try to understand and not let things get too serious and dont let the stuff bother you. This is all supposed to be fun and helpful.
 
Was this supposed to be a dress-down for my little rant, dirtdigger? If so, and you intended to offend me - well done!
 
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Not meant to offend anybody, and if you took it that way well I guess thats your issue. It was meant to shed light on what you perceive as a problem with other people and how they get information. It seems you were looking for an audience when you wrote your post so here I am :) There are ways of dealing with people that post on here and not be somewhat condescending as you have been in some of your posts lately. You dont need to talk down to user of the site when they ask a question. Like I said before if what they are saying or asking irritates you, then you dont have to reply to them, simple as that.
 
On other forums i have been on people get off thier high horse and help the new riders. If you don't like questions, ignore them. Google can lie.

 
As indicated by my OP, I have been attempting to help - plus provide links to where they can help themselves. I have provided links to pdf copies of FSM, and then have the questioner admit after many trouble-shooting steps that they had not read the FSM for that issue, and finally end up finding and fixing through setting up as the FSM specifies. I have linked parts fiche for folks numerous times when they ask where something goes (after making sure the fiche includes a readable assembly drawing of the part in question) and have the questioner ask over and over again questions answered by the fiche.

The rant was hoped to jar a few into learning to use the tools they have available. Maybe even to trigger the experienced to help the novice to learn about using their resources. Having spent my last 17 years in professional life as an instructor, I found that spoon-feeding instructions never matched the learning gained through giving the resources and encouraging self-discovery. It is a common adult-learning theme.

Google lie? Surely you jest!
 
Yet your reply to my question about tires was very helpfull. I posted on here because the reviews online are for other bikes. I wanted people who ride similar bikes to give an opinion . Instead you leave a snarky response.

 
Be careful, this subject is why I have been gone for the last year. I was told that I was going to be micromanaged to the point of every single post and word being reviewed to determine if I was to be cited over them or not. The verdict being I don't play well with others. Look at the few posts I've done since back and tell me straight to my face I don't help people. I just don't work well with those who do not support themselves then come after you as the reason.

We are expected to be kind even if we end up dressing little children in the morning. And many of them are not happy unless they get that and maybe not even then. The problem is, although we are supposed to be nice, once others start looking at you like that they ARE using you. Too much so. Of course we all get used in some way by everybody but past a certain point it can get very old and most especially when you are dealing with those who do not have or want to have the fundamental skills it takes to do much of the stuff they are asking you about. So, because you don't want to go so far as to molly-coddle them like first graders they go crying to higher ups like the little children they often are. I for one never saw so much as a single finger lifted to deal with that end of the spectrum, it all was directed the other way. We need to be nice more than fix bikes. Where is the middle ground?, expecting it ALL to be nice is a lesson in self delusion.

The problem with ignoring or not responding to certain posts is that they often do not start that way, rather it develops later. I got literally cussed out in foul terms several times yet nobody said hardly a word about that. They don't get what they insist they want and out it comes, several times so far out of left field it could not be expected. Bikers are often that way and they don't care if they quickly show they have no mastery of any of the work they are asking about at all. It being far more important to their self worth to get the macho crap out and said so everybody knows he is a bad-ss.

'It seems you were looking for an audience when you wrote your post so here I am...'

No need pointing out who said that, it is a direct challenge as bad as the ones we are accused of. The old double standard is still here and thriving. From somebody who pronounced that DOHCs never ran well with the OEM carbs and wrong oh so wrong. Yes, they are more problematic, but they can be made to run to 10,000 rpm cleanly all day long with zero issues if one knows what to do there.

If a person knows more than another he MUST talk down to the less knowledgeable one, it is the only way the other can become higher as well. The technique used there can be strained but it may well be anyway as nobody knows what another is thinking. Often the huff achieved there is one belonging to the person seen in the mirror and not the delivery guy but this site has no answer for that at all.

I thank God the car and other bike sites are more liberal in this matter, they call me out too when I deserve it but not excessively in lieu of calling out others who may need it more.

So, be friendly guys, the bikes won't run any better but that is the secondary consideration anyway.
 
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Be careful, this subject is why I have been gone for the last year. I was told that I was going to be micromanaged to the point of every single post and word being reviewed to determine if I was to be cited over them or not. The verdict being I don't play well with others. Look at the few posts I've done since back and tell me straight to my face I don't help people. ...

Welcome back AMC. What you said above is not exactly true. No one said you don't help people. In the interest of transparency, here's the message I sent to you.

I'm not around on the site much anymore, but I know you are a valuable member here who contributes a lot to this site. Over that last several months, it has been brought to my attention that you have been aggressive or rude to some new members and potentially scaring them away. I'm not saying they don't deserve it, but this site exists for the benefit of the community and I need you to be nice to people, even if they are dumb. If they don't deserve your time, don't respond. As I said, I'm not around much, so I'm trusting my moderators to handle this going forward with infractions. That will be the system we will in order for me to step in and see what's going on. I'm a pretty easy going guy and tend to give people the benefit of doubt in most situations. I'm also very busy right now, which is why I don't have time to look into every little thing. I want you around. If you feel like you are being treated unfairly by the moderators here, let me know and I'll look into it.

Travis

I was just asking you to be nicer to the newbies and letting you know that I don't monitor everything you say, thus the infraction system. If you get infractions, I'll step in to review what is going on. To me that's more fair than letting the moderators edit or delete your posts, or ban you. I'd rather be in the loop for things like that. You took it the wrong way and said you were leaving. I did review a couple of the complaints that led up to me sending you that message, and did believe you were in the wrong, thus me telling you to be nice. I think I was pretty reasonable about the whole thing. Some sites moderate heavily and ban and delete any conflict. Anyway, that seems like old news to me. You're back, so you must be wanting to play nicely after all. I'm glad to have you around.

Travis
 
The comment about not helping people was an abstract, not a factual statement accusing someone of saying any certain thing. As far as the micromanaging thing, I point out how fast you showed up here and proof of the point. I expected it. Me looking at things 'in the wrong way' of course is only a limited single point of view. I see nothing in that replay of fact above that changes my view of things, but you are trying to sway others (not me) toward your viewpoint anyway. . I pre-guessed again correctly that it would show up if you, Travis, did. Somewhat different viewpoint I guess, I have not learned to control all brains yet, not that I would ever want to. It is far better if all are different.

Look here...............I don't exactly LIKE causing trouble, I just rise to perceived needs to comment pretty quick. Sometimes (actually probably a LOT of the time) I do it TOO quick and the shortsightedness is mine there of course. I am generally a lot faster to look at myself rather than projecting all fault outwards only like so many do. Many call that weakness where I consider it a strength, and similar to the 'wrong way or your way' above. And why I am quick to point that out here and at other places. Just to note, at those other places I often get lauded for calling things as they really are. The people on the other end won't like it of course. I don't live to stir things up, it just is a result of getting in there to get things done and I did that at multiple places where I worked up to supervisor in record time and never got fired once. I got lectured a time or two over being too abrupt but I already know that and immediately ask the superior the question.......do they want that or do they want the business to make money and go forward without waste and as efficiently as possible? You know what the answer back always was. I approach bike repair and cars the exact same way, as in quit screwing around with rumor fixes and personal BS, deal with your own issues first, as they otherwise get in the way of the successful outcome you at least pretend to be looking for. A lot of people take exception at that and then they get mad, somewhere in there the bike languishes to not be fixed too.

A couple of thoughts. The next to the last place I worked at I went to manager from a zero based rookie in about 3 months. The overall manager at the time hired some people at reduced wage that were somewhat 'mentally challenged' because she professed to feel the need to help them due to her brother being the same way. That resulted in a two tier employee system, one where some people who were ordinary joes got placed against people who had perceived problems. It quickly got to where the former began to chafe hard at having to 'be nice', they got it in their heads that the lesser employees were milking the system to not have to do as much work and I agreed. These latter had no proof of being substantially less able in any way, they just fulfilled the promise by their actions, i.e., they just did less work on purpose, they were slackers pretending to have personal issues as a reason why they would not carry their share of workload. I counseled the manager that she was being taken advantage of and then she told me she actually hired them at lesser pay taking advantage of that and that others had to figure out whether they wanted to work there or go somewhere else. Then I got a lecture about how we had to 'be nice' to them even though the store output dropped due to lesser competence and the raises were the same across the board. Meaning you got the same increase as the slackers did. I pointed out at the time that others do like to step in and help but past a point it gets old enough they begin to look at the handwriting on the wall to figure out they were being mixed in with those lesser workers to become in essence the same to corporate and a waste of time trying to get ahead in that. Like school classes now, the entire class can now move only as fast forward as the slowest person can go and now why the schools put out nothing but incompetents that the businesses cannot use at all. If you excell in learning you are severely penalized for it. Anyway, the better workers began to quit to go elsewhere pretty quick and the same answer from them all as to why, they got tired of no raises or ones so low not worth working for AND still having to deal with the poisoned work environment. I myself quit over it 3 years later and the prime reason I gave was the two tier thing the manager had imposed. By then she had buried herself in multiple harassment claims over going hard on the better people instead of spreading it around to catch the slackers and shortly after I left she got fired for that.

Second thought here. I know someone I personally counseled over the years to be a go-getter in business and pass up people left and right. That person only reached a leadperson position and later moved slightly sideways/up to become a SAP systems wave planner at a logistics company. The company is FULL of slackers and got only worse through the 12 years he was there. The worst were the actual shift supervisors. 3 shifts and 2 of them practiced every technique used to delay work to throw it on other shifts. This leadperson was on second shift and got the delayed shipments to have to shove them out lightning quick when the early day shift left them lying around with zero movement on the work to have maybe 4 hours of work performed in 2 to make the deadlines. The plant supervisor being another total incompetent allowed all that to happen and even worse, he saw no issue if the deadlines got met even though sometimes they were missed. The leadperson I speak of of course got blamed for the misses even though he came on at 2p and the work would have laid on floor since 6a in the morning. Deadline at 4p or 6p. The leadperson's super quit over the situation and then the new super then made the lead do all of his work as well. Then the lead changed to SAP wave planner (workflow/scheduling creator for the entire plant) and they now want him to do all 3 jobs even though paying others to do them that ain't. The lead got so good at SAP that when the company switched to it he singlehandedly held up the entire company to have a chainwide best ever SAP introduction, they brought all the corporate heads in over it. He actually produced over 400% better results than the official SAP group that trained for 2 years to do just that, they turned out to be totally unready for the go-live. This lead was NOT on the SAP training group, he was left out on purpose as punishment for a perceived slight done years in the past, the plant supervisor was still punishing him years later. Then raise time comes and everybody gets big raises except for the lead guy. He gets SUPER pissed and sets up his quit to be at the worst possible time and leaves with zero warning to force the plant super to stay the entire weekend since the fool gave everybody else time off and could not cancel it, a major problem he had. That was weeks ago, the exact same company that with ONE person only extra was not working any overtime (commanded not to, the wages are killing the budget because NOBODY works there) is now working every single week with 100-200 hours of OT now just to stay close to where they were before and the national contracts are beginning to disappear left and right now. Corporate has now been there for 2 weeks and it is expected the plant manager will be gone any minute.

Wait, you say, that's work and not the same. Not true. When you go overboard to cater to the intentional slackers that then use you completely up, then you not only are screwing yourself, you are screwing them as well, they learn to depend on others saving them instead of thinking solutions out. Why being nice can be one of the worst curses you can put on somebody, I've practiced that myself to deadly effect before. Here it could be done and just don't mention anything that actually fixes the bike. Just throw all the things out there (SEAFOAM! #1!) that people do that they think does something when it has no effect at all.

Yes, we should help people and be nice BUUUUTTTT, when somebody wants you to lead them around by the hand one should be able to stop that without getting sanctioned for it. My answer in cases like that is often something like 'give him the 500 page book' and I have gotten slammed for that. Testy responses do not help but to some people the words 'thank you' can be mistreating them, BTDT. One of the most unexpected complaints I ever got was from a woman who in our entire transactional experience was very kind and I was back, it was I thought a pleasure to help her. Later the complaint I got back was so Jekyll/Hyde that corporate didn't even believe it. they had others to corroborate what I said to her.

MANY of the people who complain quick ARE baby-like whiners, do NOT understate the possibility there.

Yes, be nice. No, don't go crazy with it, it won't fix a single spark plug or broken wire. It's a minefield out there. When they start paying for it you can further develop the small talk. Do you want the d-mn bike fixed or not? You're getting this FOR FREE. Learn to ignore what you don't like, it works just as well as not answering posts. Informational transactions are a TWO WAY street. Newbies are just as able at that as oldies. Anything else is prejudicial.

I apologize to all for the wall of text.
 
I realize that I did not adequately explain the reason for example #2 above. Basically it can show how much worse the slackers can be now both in how much they demand from you and how they react regardless of how nice you are. I did parts store stints in '80 and then in '10 and believe me, the general attitude of many people as part of an average has gone down the toilet. They are much quicker to get mad even if you start all conversations with the nicest thing you can think of. I could not count all the times a 'hello how are you today?' got me a bad look or remark. Then if you could not fulfill what they wanted it often got worse, the problem being that often THEY didn't know what they wanted.

Look at the government now, you don't see much effort to be nice there either. Not trying to justify it at all but one does have to live in the real world or otherwise delusion, all of it.

I for one will try to do better.
 
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